Peace.


Getting older and slower


I may answer 2 posts in one. .


""The chronological order of the Quran is based on both hadeeth and Islamic traditions, according to my knowledge. Just like Muslim scholars sat down and decided which passages were abrogated they also decided to attach chronological order to the Quranic verses and say whether they were madinan or meccan.""




I will appreciate if you post the those sources with more detail here. I have asked same question more than year in forums that many have Hadith knowledge. I have not had any response. Now if you know then will be a great help.


I am not sure if you read whole work in submission .org ( not .com that you mentioned in your life story!)


Setting up that table is such method can not be any human work when mathematician are stumped to imitate it.




"" There is no easy way. I believe that the Quran is from God today because after reading it so far I have no reason not to. ""




I have heard that from all other religion believer which claim their scripyure is authored by GOD which fight and kill each other for proving their claim


http://perso.wanadoo.fr/paul.g.aclinou/freelinkpage1gods.htm




Debating over content of any scripture prior to its proof authored by GOD ALONE is wasting time. There are many monotheists that are not ready to see and understand mathematical structure of Quran. Same as you they say that they believe Quran is Authored by GOD. I personally have no difficulty to see these people a which their connection with their past is avoiding them to see Miracle. But if they want to invite others to read Quran as you do then you will have a difficult time to persuade them to leave their parents belief. So what makes you sure that Quran is authored by GOD and not other scriptures.




<< Rahsad has mistranslated that passage that you use. it is 25:32 and it says in Arabic 'rattalnaahu tarteelan' rattala means 'to arrange/order' and to put 'tarteelan' behind it is like saying 'excellently'. So that it means 'We arranged it excellently' not 'we have arranged it in specific sequence'. This is a horrible mistranslation>>


First Rashad did not translate that verse to match his table. I have added it as explains the secret of specific sequence.


http://mama.stg.brown.edu/templates/pqcgi?sourceform=pqform.shtml&searchtype=fetch&boolop=and&maxhits=50&searchstring=25%3a32&version=all


Sectarian translators have used almost same words.




About the moon you may go to forum link and find what idea I have for using moon as timing device.


Any large project by human could have some flaw. God; s project has no flaw and if we see some errors in mathematical structure d is due to human mistakes. We are at very early stage of discoveries of GOD’s Sign Code 19.


This phenomenon have been proofed scientifically by Dr.Plichta with 30 years study to discover new method of Math. The famous clergy figure Ahmed Deedat has supported this facts too.


But Miracle is self defense and shows greatness of creator.


You may ask math professors to find the solution for putting those Surat number in Specific , Special, Excellent, or correct orders.




I have asked for participating here to sign the petition . I am not sure if you have done it. Therecords on this screen shows that you are using your real name.




Peace.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Rahsad has mistranslated that passage that you use. it is 25:32 and it says in Arabic 'rattalnaahu tarteelan' rattala means 'to arrange/order' and to put 'tarteelan' behind it is like saying 'excellently'. So that it means 'We arranged it excellently' not 'we have arranged it in specific sequence'. This is a horrible mistranslation. Moreover, your articles that have to do with the moon i find misinformed. Not on nutation but on the moon as a timing device. The lunar calendar is a timing device. Through it we know of Hajj, Ramadan and it also has much implications for agriculture and fishing cycles. Moreover the sun lets us know of the solar year. We as humans have tried to come up with something that defies earth time because the lunar year and the solar year fluctuate. But this is Earth time, the Earth moves and breathes by the calendar of the moon and the sun. I'm sure we'll find out that in all different systems in this universe there are different times. Time is relative. We have abondoned these times in our effort to separate ourselves from nature, an effort which will lead to our destruction. The ancients focused on the lunar cycle, and the solar cycle(which is mapped by the Zodiac) very much. We think it is because they had nothing better to do and were just intrigued by the stars. But I wonder how far observing natural laws and using them to your own benefit within the system can really get us. Maybe they were more careful then we are in the way we use what nature has to offer us and more observant and respectful of the perfection of nature to their great advantage. OR maybe they weren't. All I know is that our negligence and avoidance of the way the earth works has led uss down a bad road health wise, as we die of diseases that we blame God for(our genes believing them innate and unchangeable). And we continue to look for the short cuts that will bring us more money or more fame(but mainly more money) when God has laid the best path already for those who are prudent and intelligent enough to look, see and take advantage of. We humans are a psychotic race. My main point is that it looks as if you've overlooked an important aspect of the Quran and the importance of the lunar and solar cylces in going straight to nutation(though this may be of much benefit also) and looking for something connected to 19. Have you looked at the article (The Movement) that I posted at the top of the page? And really examine brother Hardy's article. Also remember how much of what you are seeing is really a miracle/marvel and what is a miracle or marvel for? But most importantly, look for consistency and go back to the passage and look at the Arabic, not Rashad's translation which I've shown you is a bit twisted. Did God have said what you and other proponents of the miracle are saying? That is most important. As well as if the study of 19 is more important than the actual study of the Quran.

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Replying to:

The chronological order of the Quran is based on both hadeeth and Islamic traditions, according to my knowledge. Just like Muslim scholars sat down and decided which passages were abrogated they also decided to attach chronological order to the Quranic verses and say whether they were madinan or meccan. I believe this orginated in the hadeethic stories of the Quran's compilation attributed to the "companions" of the prophet. These stories are not to be trusted, let alone over the Quran. The Quran is more historical then these sources and we need to go to IT for the answers. Even the verse numbers and the names of the suras are Islamic tradition and not soundly based(the Quran talks about those who divide it up into bits). I presume that the names came after Bukhari's time because when he cites them in his interpretation of them he does not mention them by their names but by their first passages. The order of the Quran now is the order that it was recieved in, not the contrived order made up by scholars who contradict the Quran constantly. Many of the stories about Muhammad(Godbless) contradict the Quran. The Quran has his parents alive during the revelation, the Quran says that the way Gabriel recited it was the way it was to be followed. So why would he, Muhammad(Godbless,)command otherwise? Moreover the only thing that separates suras are the 'basmala's. Suratun means enclosement and these are the only things that enclose. SO why are there 114 suras? There should only be 113. Do not trust these shady traditions. They either are based in Hadeeth or based in scholarly imagination. The only two things the Hadeeth are good for are affirming the Qur'an's existence during and before its time and telling us what the people of that time most likely believed. We really don't know if the Quran took 20 yrs to deliver, this is hearsay. The Quran actually does say that it was delivered at once to Muhammad, but delivered gradually to the people. Muhammad's parents, according to the Quran, weren't even in their old age, and if old age begins at 50 then Muhammad during revelation was at the most 39, assuming his mother had him at 12 years old.(doubtful but possible) But then these people counted years by the moon instead of by the solar year(the zodiacal cycle), so 50 to us was probably about 60 or so to them, I believe. But then again, if they followed the Jewish practice of counting years, which they did, then they WOULD think of it as about 50.(the Quran changed this practice). This is not necessarily important, but what is important is that we put things into their rightful context. This mathematical miracle needs false islamic traditon and the passage mentioned to back it up. The tradition is false and the passage doesn't back it up, not to mention the inconsistencies in procedure and statistical knowledge that makes what many have claimed to be a miracle, not one. I studied the code and the inconsistencies were enough for me in combination with what the passage actually said. THis thing is causing no-one trouble but the people who believe in it. Let go and let God. In this world there is always the possibility that we may be wrong and only honest study and criticism will lead us on the right path. There is no easy way. I believe that the Quran is from God today because after reading it so far I have no reason not to. But I had to read it and criticize it and make room for the possibility that it would contradict itself and that I would have to reject it. I may see something different tomorrow, and that is the unsurity of the matter, but I can only go on what I know. With or without the Quran I still believe in God, logically. It confirmed that, so it earned one score and as long as it continues to earn scores and stay consistent and logical then I will accept it for what it says it is: God's message. As for those subject, books or things I don't have knolwedge about, I just say "I don't know." Then I try to know.

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Replying to:

Peace Anwar:


Welcome.


Can you help to find solution?


http://home.istar.ca/~tajeri/suratorder.html


Peace.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bahman, I mean no disprepect when I tell you this but the code is a farse. A knowledge of Arabic is necessary when approaching the Qur'an. I will not go into the inconsistencies I find with the code but I will go into the very verse that the code is based off of. I ask you to go here: http://www.inet.ba/~hardy/whatmade.htm


and re-examine the code. The most important thing is not the


code but what the book actually says and what the Qur'an says about 19 surely does not promote any code. It does not call the number 19 a mircacle but a fitnatun, a trial and tribulation. There is too much inconsistency I observed that and so did the writer of the article I recommended.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

*19*


17:36


Peace upon you :




I wrote my ps awhile ago and when found changes in yahoo club and merging into new directory ( global censorship). I came back for awhile visiting this board that soon will not be on top unless the founders work harder to generate more membership to be on top of group !!


In one way I am happy to see such merging . No news is better than bad news. This screen has been abused by poor nations ruling systems to display their craps and garbage under name of Islam. I do not wonder that none of those founder responded to you and not to your prior denial of Quran. Some of them claim are Quranist but not able to defend Quran . They have no proof that Quran is word of GOD and they are like fire fighters with no water.




Your denial of Quran is not new and has been there for 1400 years.




I could not close my eye and let you go with your confusing claim .


I was thinking like you for 60 years. I could not believe that GOD will send us such messages in Quran and pervious scriptures.


When I was younger I searched for a solid proof to persuade me for existence of Creator. Religious people trying to tell me that their book (books) is the right one. They were trying to read what is recorded in the book prior to proof of book. They were talking of Miracles that Moses performed or Jesus or others.


Sectarian Moslems claim that Mohammed was unlettered and citing such extra ordinary Arabic Rhymed literature by Mohammed as security guard at his time and even now is miracle and sign of GOD. If I was Arab and educated one to read and understand beauty of Quran text then I agreed with them . But I do not know Arabic like other 6 billions minus Arabs.


I could not accept their claim as other numerous religions before them. I could not follow them blindly. I could keep my job, position, wealth as many did and follow them blindly. But doing such thing was cheating myself and selling my belief.


I was destined to be what I was an Atheist to the time that was time my eye be opened and that veil be removed .


I did not go to masque and ask imam or shiekh to submit to GOD ALONE. No body invited me and nobody send me email to visit any file. When the time comes no force can stop it and that was time for me to convert into Submission. ISLAM (no sect).


What was that power ? What caused I revert and submit to GOD ALONE ?


Witnessing Superhuman Mathematical Structure of Quran washed out all my doubt and denial.


I did not have to have degree in mathematics, theology, philosophy, science.. All I needed was to undertand four basic arithmetic functions +-*/


Easy to understand-Impossible to imitate.


I am not sure if you can understand and see it. I am not sure if the time those dust be removed from your eye as happened to me. You do not have to know Arabic to see greatness of GOD. Christian say it is Satan work as the text, Sectarian Moslem say that is fraud and wrong.


http://home.istar.ca/~tajeri/bsm2.html


But is there with all its power is sparkling over head of this planet residence. Recently I dropped an easy and simple portion of such Superhuman mathematical structure in mathematician club without referring to source.


Visit here read “Challenge” and find what was the response !!


http://pub38.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=3200326915


It will be wasting time if we refer to verses in Quran and discuss them prior to proof of Quran and demonstrate that it is same words that GOD revealed to Mohammed.


If you are one of those that your heart is not clear of any prejudices and your belief is linked to what your teacher and parents have taught you then is no sense we continuing this discussion.


If you and others are interested to discuss this topic then I recommend you to visit above board which displays you


I am posting copy of yours and my response in either boards in case this poat be deleted as done to my other one.


Before I finish I may say:


I wonder why you use Koran on your topic and Quran in your post?. My Iranian Arabic tells me that Qur ( Persian use Ghur) means Read and Un means IT. Q is more closer to GHAF or Quf than K.


I am not sure if you real name is Victor ( fatih) but it could not be coincidence that your name is linking to al Fateha (The Key) chapter (sura one ) which you claim is words of Mohammed not GOD.). Not only your Yahoo alias fits your claim {al fatiha} but that chosen number 619 is the place that GOD clearly responses to claims like YOURS!!!


[al-An`am 6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."




Quran has 114 chapters =6*19




And when I look at same combination:




[as-Saff 61:7] Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies about GOD, and he is being invited to Submission? GOD does not guide the evil people.


[as-Saff 61:8] They wish to put out GOD's light with their mouths. But GOD insists upon perfecting His light, in spite of the disbelievers.




[as-Saff 61:9] He has sent His messenger with the guidance and the true religion, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.




[as-Saff 61:10] O you who believe, let Me inform you of a trade that will save you from painful retribution.


[as-Saff 61:11] Believe in GOD and His messenger and strive in the cause of GOD with your money and your lives. This is the best deal for you, if you only knew.
















I close down with your claim:


<< Dear Readers, we will see how some of the verses in the Quran itself show clearly that these words were obviously spoken by Muhammad and Not God. The Opening Sura Fatihah: (Quran 1:1-7) In the name of the Merciful and Compassionate God. Praise belongs to God, The Lord of the worlds, the merciful, the compassionate, the ruler of the day of the day of judgment! Thee we serve and Thee we ask for aid. Guide us in the right path, the path of those Thou art gracious to; not to those Thou art wroth with, nor of those who err. Someone need not be a rocket-scientist to comprehend that these words are clearly addressed to God, in the form of a prayer. They are Muhammad's words of praise to God ("Guide us in the right path,..." ~ 001.006), asking for God's help and guidance>>




Will you then Submit?


http://home.istar.ca/~tajeri/bsm2.html


Peace.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

kuran is not a word of god victor619


12/1/01 7:08 pm


Quran- Word of God or Muhammad ? Dear Readers, have you noticed there are many verses in Quran which uses Muhammad's word directly ? If we read those verses, we clearly understand that those were Muhammad's own word, not Allah's. Well, according to the Muslims the Quran contains the words of God. Quran is to be read as if God Himself had spoken these words stated in it. It is important to emphasize this point because if Quran is the word of God then it should not contain any errors and it should hold true for all times. However, such is not the case. Dear Readers, we will see how some of the verses in the Quran itself show clearly that these words were obviously spoken by Muhammad and Not God. The Opening Sura Fatihah Quran 1:1-7) In the name of the Merciful and Compassionate God. Praise belongs to God, The Lord of the worlds, the merciful, the compassionate, the ruler of the day of the day of judgment! Thee we serve and Thee we ask for aid. Guide us in the right path, the path of those Thou art gracious to; not to those Thou art wroth with, nor of those who err. Someone need not be a rocket-scientist to comprehend that these words are clearly addressed to God, in the form of a prayer. They are Muhammad's words of praise to God ("Guide us in the right path,..." ~ 001.006), asking for God's help and guidance. Some Muslim compilers conveniently add the imperative "say" in the English translation of the Quran at the beginning of the sura to remove this difficulty. This imperative form of the word "say" occurs at least 350 times in the Quran, and its obvious that this word has, in fact, been inserted by later compilers of the Quran to remove countless similarly embarrassing difficulties. Thus, we have direct evidence that the Quran starts out with the words of Muhammad. (Quran 113:1) I take refuge with the Lord of the Dawn. One can clearly see, its Muhammad and NOT GOD HIMSELF who is seeking refuge in God.




View Replies to this Message




<- Previous Next -> Message 40241 of 40300 Reply

Bahman, I mean no disprepect when I tell you this but the code is a farse. A knowledge of Arabic is necessary when approaching the Qur'an. I will not go into the inconsistencies I find with the code but I will go into the very verse that the code is based off of. I ask you to go here: http://www.inet.ba/~hardy/whatmade.htm


and re-examine the code. The most important thing is not the


code but what the book actually says and what the Qur'an says about 19 surely does not promote any code. It does not call the number 19 a mircacle but a fitnatun, a trial and tribulation. There is too much inconsistency I observed that and so did the writer of the article I recommended.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

*19*


17:36


Peace upon you :




I wrote my ps awhile ago and when found changes in yahoo club and merging into new directory ( global censorship). I came back for awhile visiting this board that soon will not be on top unless the founders work harder to generate more membership to be on top of group !!


In one way I am happy to see such merging . No news is better than bad news. This screen has been abused by poor nations ruling systems to display their craps and garbage under name of Islam. I do not wonder that none of those founder responded to you and not to your prior denial of Quran. Some of them claim are Quranist but not able to defend Quran . They have no proof that Quran is word of GOD and they are like fire fighters with no water.




Your denial of Quran is not new and has been there for 1400 years.




I could not close my eye and let you go with your confusing claim .


I was thinking like you for 60 years. I could not believe that GOD will send us such messages in Quran and pervious scriptures.


When I was younger I searched for a solid proof to persuade me for existence of Creator. Religious people trying to tell me that their book (books) is the right one. They were trying to read what is recorded in the book prior to proof of book. They were talking of Miracles that Moses performed or Jesus or others.


Sectarian Moslems claim that Mohammed was unlettered and citing such extra ordinary Arabic Rhymed literature by Mohammed as security guard at his time and even now is miracle and sign of GOD. If I was Arab and educated one to read and understand beauty of Quran text then I agreed with them . But I do not know Arabic like other 6 billions minus Arabs.


I could not accept their claim as other numerous religions before them. I could not follow them blindly. I could keep my job, position, wealth as many did and follow them blindly. But doing such thing was cheating myself and selling my belief.


I was destined to be what I was an Atheist to the time that was time my eye be opened and that veil be removed .


I did not go to masque and ask imam or shiekh to submit to GOD ALONE. No body invited me and nobody send me email to visit any file. When the time comes no force can stop it and that was time for me to convert into Submission. ISLAM (no sect).


What was that power ? What caused I revert and submit to GOD ALONE ?


Witnessing Superhuman Mathematical Structure of Quran washed out all my doubt and denial.


I did not have to have degree in mathematics, theology, philosophy, science.. All I needed was to undertand four basic arithmetic functions +-*/


Easy to understand-Impossible to imitate.


I am not sure if you can understand and see it. I am not sure if the time those dust be removed from your eye as happened to me. You do not have to know Arabic to see greatness of GOD. Christian say it is Satan work as the text, Sectarian Moslem say that is fraud and wrong.


http://home.istar.ca/~tajeri/bsm2.html


But is there with all its power is sparkling over head of this planet residence. Recently I dropped an easy and simple portion of such Superhuman mathematical structure in mathematician club without referring to source.


Visit here read “Challenge” and find what was the response !!


http://pub38.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=3200326915


It will be wasting time if we refer to verses in Quran and discuss them prior to proof of Quran and demonstrate that it is same words that GOD revealed to Mohammed.


If you are one of those that your heart is not clear of any prejudices and your belief is linked to what your teacher and parents have taught you then is no sense we continuing this discussion.


If you and others are interested to discuss this topic then I recommend you to visit above board which displays you


I am posting copy of yours and my response in either boards in case this poat be deleted as done to my other one.


Before I finish I may say:


I wonder why you use Koran on your topic and Quran in your post?. My Iranian Arabic tells me that Qur ( Persian use Ghur) means Read and Un means IT. Q is more closer to GHAF or Quf than K.


I am not sure if you real name is Victor ( fatih) but it could not be coincidence that your name is linking to al Fateha (The Key) chapter (sura one ) which you claim is words of Mohammed not GOD.). Not only your Yahoo alias fits your claim {al fatiha} but that chosen number 619 is the place that GOD clearly responses to claims like YOURS!!!


[al-An`am 6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."




Quran has 114 chapters =6*19




And when I look at same combination:




[as-Saff 61:7] Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies about GOD, and he is being invited to Submission? GOD does not guide the evil people.


[as-Saff 61:8] They wish to put out GOD's light with their mouths. But GOD insists upon perfecting His light, in spite of the disbelievers.




[as-Saff 61:9] He has sent His messenger with the guidance and the true religion, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.




[as-Saff 61:10] O you who believe, let Me inform you of a trade that will save you from painful retribution.


[as-Saff 61:11] Believe in GOD and His messenger and strive in the cause of GOD with your money and your lives. This is the best deal for you, if you only knew.
















I close down with your claim:


<< Dear Readers, we will see how some of the verses in the Quran itself show clearly that these words were obviously spoken by Muhammad and Not God. The Opening Sura Fatihah: (Quran 1:1-7) In the name of the Merciful and Compassionate God. Praise belongs to God, The Lord of the worlds, the merciful, the compassionate, the ruler of the day of the day of judgment! Thee we serve and Thee we ask for aid. Guide us in the right path, the path of those Thou art gracious to; not to those Thou art wroth with, nor of those who err. Someone need not be a rocket-scientist to comprehend that these words are clearly addressed to God, in the form of a prayer. They are Muhammad's words of praise to God ("Guide us in the right path,..." ~ 001.006), asking for God's help and guidance>>




Will you then Submit?


http://home.istar.ca/~tajeri/bsm2.html


Peace.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

kuran is not a word of god victor619


12/1/01 7:08 pm


Quran- Word of God or Muhammad ? Dear Readers, have you noticed there are many verses in Quran which uses Muhammad's word directly ? If we read those verses, we clearly understand that those were Muhammad's own word, not Allah's. Well, according to the Muslims the Quran contains the words of God. Quran is to be read as if God Himself had spoken these words stated in it. It is important to emphasize this point because if Quran is the word of God then it should not contain any errors and it should hold true for all times. However, such is not the case. Dear Readers, we will see how some of the verses in the Quran itself show clearly that these words were obviously spoken by Muhammad and Not God. The Opening Sura Fatihah Quran 1:1-7) In the name of the Merciful and Compassionate God. Praise belongs to God, The Lord of the worlds, the merciful, the compassionate, the ruler of the day of the day of judgment! Thee we serve and Thee we ask for aid. Guide us in the right path, the path of those Thou art gracious to; not to those Thou art wroth with, nor of those who err. Someone need not be a rocket-scientist to comprehend that these words are clearly addressed to God, in the form of a prayer. They are Muhammad's words of praise to God ("Guide us in the right path,..." ~ 001.006), asking for God's help and guidance. Some Muslim compilers conveniently add the imperative "say" in the English translation of the Quran at the beginning of the sura to remove this difficulty. This imperative form of the word "say" occurs at least 350 times in the Quran, and its obvious that this word has, in fact, been inserted by later compilers of the Quran to remove countless similarly embarrassing difficulties. Thus, we have direct evidence that the Quran starts out with the words of Muhammad. (Quran 113:1) I take refuge with the Lord of the Dawn. One can clearly see, its Muhammad and NOT GOD HIMSELF who is seeking refuge in God.




View Replies to this Message




<- Previous Next -> Message 40241 of 40300 Reply

The reason why it is a hardpressed thing to get others to believe


that the Quran is from God is because they do not want to study


it. The problem I have other scriptures, particularly the Bible


is that first the Bible is not one book in reality. It is many books and all of them are separate, therefore all should be judged separate. We should never speak of the Bible(especially since there are different Bibles) only the books themselves. I can only read what I know the langauge too. I do hope to learn Hebrew and Aramaic so that I can read the original versions of the Old and New testament. But the first step is seeing whether the book says it is from God or not. The Gospels of Matthew, Luke, Mark and John do not, so they are not from God, despite the good in them, that needs to be taken secondly. I say the Quran 'yes' because it says it is from God and it has proven itself by what it says and being consistent. I could be wrong but the point is doing the best one can. The code I will not believe in because there is no consistent method. The proponents of the code add,subtract, multiply devide and even use powers to get anything that is connectedto 19. This is too much. And again what does the Quran say about 19. Maybe most mathemeticians won't even touch the issue because they see these inconsistencies and it is not worth their time. It is not about any miracle it is about the content of the Quran and the true proponent of the Quran should be promoting the books understanding. People are quick to believe in somethingt that they feel is beyond and above them. But the code, I will not believe in. I have believe in it and because I examined and and studied the Quran I do not,just as I do not say I am Muslim. It is a hard life to live but atleast I know I'm not being false. Sectarian translators have translated 25:32 wrong also, in order to support the Islamic theory that the Quran came down in stages to Muhammad(Godbless him). I know what it really says. To get people to believe in the Quran without reading and studying is not the point of God's mission. Otherwise what would set us apart from the Christians or others who believe in what they believe for the sake of Miracles. The point is do you have a reasonable, logical and fair reason to deny that the Quran is from God. For most people this is too much. They are like cattle, worst and I'm sick of it. As for the chronological order. I will keep a look out for it's origin and see if the Islamic books that mention it have references.But I have told you about the episodes in the hadeeth that do mention the order of certain passages. But as prayer is uniform and without any origin except for people keeping it the same so can this story have been passed on and kept in uniformity.




Anwar

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Replying to:

Peace.


Getting older and slower


I may answer 2 posts in one. .


""The chronological order of the Quran is based on both hadeeth and Islamic traditions, according to my knowledge. Just like Muslim scholars sat down and decided which passages were abrogated they also decided to attach chronological order to the Quranic verses and say whether they were madinan or meccan.""




I will appreciate if you post the those sources with more detail here. I have asked same question more than year in forums that many have Hadith knowledge. I have not had any response. Now if you know then will be a great help.


I am not sure if you read whole work in submission .org ( not .com that you mentioned in your life story!)


Setting up that table is such method can not be any human work when mathematician are stumped to imitate it.




"" There is no easy way. I believe that the Quran is from God today because after reading it so far I have no reason not to. ""




I have heard that from all other religion believer which claim their scripyure is authored by GOD which fight and kill each other for proving their claim


http://perso.wanadoo.fr/paul.g.aclinou/freelinkpage1gods.htm




Debating over content of any scripture prior to its proof authored by GOD ALONE is wasting time. There are many monotheists that are not ready to see and understand mathematical structure of Quran. Same as you they say that they believe Quran is Authored by GOD. I personally have no difficulty to see these people a which their connection with their past is avoiding them to see Miracle. But if they want to invite others to read Quran as you do then you will have a difficult time to persuade them to leave their parents belief. So what makes you sure that Quran is authored by GOD and not other scriptures.




<< Rahsad has mistranslated that passage that you use. it is 25:32 and it says in Arabic 'rattalnaahu tarteelan' rattala means 'to arrange/order' and to put 'tarteelan' behind it is like saying 'excellently'. So that it means 'We arranged it excellently' not 'we have arranged it in specific sequence'. This is a horrible mistranslation>>


First Rashad did not translate that verse to match his table. I have added it as explains the secret of specific sequence.


http://mama.stg.brown.edu/templates/pqcgi?sourceform=pqform.shtml&searchtype=fetch&boolop=and&maxhits=50&searchstring=25%3a32&version=all


Sectarian translators have used almost same words.




About the moon you may go to forum link and find what idea I have for using moon as timing device.


Any large project by human could have some flaw. God; s project has no flaw and if we see some errors in mathematical structure d is due to human mistakes. We are at very early stage of discoveries of GOD’s Sign Code 19.


This phenomenon have been proofed scientifically by Dr.Plichta with 30 years study to discover new method of Math. The famous clergy figure Ahmed Deedat has supported this facts too.


But Miracle is self defense and shows greatness of creator.


You may ask math professors to find the solution for putting those Surat number in Specific , Special, Excellent, or correct orders.




I have asked for participating here to sign the petition . I am not sure if you have done it. Therecords on this screen shows that you are using your real name.




Peace.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Rahsad has mistranslated that passage that you use. it is 25:32 and it says in Arabic 'rattalnaahu tarteelan' rattala means 'to arrange/order' and to put 'tarteelan' behind it is like saying 'excellently'. So that it means 'We arranged it excellently' not 'we have arranged it in specific sequence'. This is a horrible mistranslation. Moreover, your articles that have to do with the moon i find misinformed. Not on nutation but on the moon as a timing device. The lunar calendar is a timing device. Through it we know of Hajj, Ramadan and it also has much implications for agriculture and fishing cycles. Moreover the sun lets us know of the solar year. We as humans have tried to come up with something that defies earth time because the lunar year and the solar year fluctuate. But this is Earth time, the Earth moves and breathes by the calendar of the moon and the sun. I'm sure we'll find out that in all different systems in this universe there are different times. Time is relative. We have abondoned these times in our effort to separate ourselves from nature, an effort which will lead to our destruction. The ancients focused on the lunar cycle, and the solar cycle(which is mapped by the Zodiac) very much. We think it is because they had nothing better to do and were just intrigued by the stars. But I wonder how far observing natural laws and using them to your own benefit within the system can really get us. Maybe they were more careful then we are in the way we use what nature has to offer us and more observant and respectful of the perfection of nature to their great advantage. OR maybe they weren't. All I know is that our negligence and avoidance of the way the earth works has led uss down a bad road health wise, as we die of diseases that we blame God for(our genes believing them innate and unchangeable). And we continue to look for the short cuts that will bring us more money or more fame(but mainly more money) when God has laid the best path already for those who are prudent and intelligent enough to look, see and take advantage of. We humans are a psychotic race. My main point is that it looks as if you've overlooked an important aspect of the Quran and the importance of the lunar and solar cylces in going straight to nutation(though this may be of much benefit also) and looking for something connected to 19. Have you looked at the article (The Movement) that I posted at the top of the page? And really examine brother Hardy's article. Also remember how much of what you are seeing is really a miracle/marvel and what is a miracle or marvel for? But most importantly, look for consistency and go back to the passage and look at the Arabic, not Rashad's translation which I've shown you is a bit twisted. Did God have said what you and other proponents of the miracle are saying? That is most important. As well as if the study of 19 is more important than the actual study of the Quran.

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Replying to:

The chronological order of the Quran is based on both hadeeth and Islamic traditions, according to my knowledge. Just like Muslim scholars sat down and decided which passages were abrogated they also decided to attach chronological order to the Quranic verses and say whether they were madinan or meccan. I believe this orginated in the hadeethic stories of the Quran's compilation attributed to the "companions" of the prophet. These stories are not to be trusted, let alone over the Quran. The Quran is more historical then these sources and we need to go to IT for the answers. Even the verse numbers and the names of the suras are Islamic tradition and not soundly based(the Quran talks about those who divide it up into bits). I presume that the names came after Bukhari's time because when he cites them in his interpretation of them he does not mention them by their names but by their first passages. The order of the Quran now is the order that it was recieved in, not the contrived order made up by scholars who contradict the Quran constantly. Many of the stories about Muhammad(Godbless) contradict the Quran. The Quran has his parents alive during the revelation, the Quran says that the way Gabriel recited it was the way it was to be followed. So why would he, Muhammad(Godbless,)command otherwise? Moreover the only thing that separates suras are the 'basmala's. Suratun means enclosement and these are the only things that enclose. SO why are there 114 suras? There should only be 113. Do not trust these shady traditions. They either are based in Hadeeth or based in scholarly imagination. The only two things the Hadeeth are good for are affirming the Qur'an's existence during and before its time and telling us what the people of that time most likely believed. We really don't know if the Quran took 20 yrs to deliver, this is hearsay. The Quran actually does say that it was delivered at once to Muhammad, but delivered gradually to the people. Muhammad's parents, according to the Quran, weren't even in their old age, and if old age begins at 50 then Muhammad during revelation was at the most 39, assuming his mother had him at 12 years old.(doubtful but possible) But then these people counted years by the moon instead of by the solar year(the zodiacal cycle), so 50 to us was probably about 60 or so to them, I believe. But then again, if they followed the Jewish practice of counting years, which they did, then they WOULD think of it as about 50.(the Quran changed this practice). This is not necessarily important, but what is important is that we put things into their rightful context. This mathematical miracle needs false islamic traditon and the passage mentioned to back it up. The tradition is false and the passage doesn't back it up, not to mention the inconsistencies in procedure and statistical knowledge that makes what many have claimed to be a miracle, not one. I studied the code and the inconsistencies were enough for me in combination with what the passage actually said. THis thing is causing no-one trouble but the people who believe in it. Let go and let God. In this world there is always the possibility that we may be wrong and only honest study and criticism will lead us on the right path. There is no easy way. I believe that the Quran is from God today because after reading it so far I have no reason not to. But I had to read it and criticize it and make room for the possibility that it would contradict itself and that I would have to reject it. I may see something different tomorrow, and that is the unsurity of the matter, but I can only go on what I know. With or without the Quran I still believe in God, logically. It confirmed that, so it earned one score and as long as it continues to earn scores and stay consistent and logical then I will accept it for what it says it is: God's message. As for those subject, books or things I don't have knolwedge about, I just say "I don't know." Then I try to know.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Peace Anwar:


Welcome.


Can you help to find solution?


http://home.istar.ca/~tajeri/suratorder.html


Peace.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bahman, I mean no disprepect when I tell you this but the code is a farse. A knowledge of Arabic is necessary when approaching the Qur'an. I will not go into the inconsistencies I find with the code but I will go into the very verse that the code is based off of. I ask you to go here: http://www.inet.ba/~hardy/whatmade.htm


and re-examine the code. The most important thing is not the


code but what the book actually says and what the Qur'an says about 19 surely does not promote any code. It does not call the number 19 a mircacle but a fitnatun, a trial and tribulation. There is too much inconsistency I observed that and so did the writer of the article I recommended.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

*19*


17:36


Peace upon you :




I wrote my ps awhile ago and when found changes in yahoo club and merging into new directory ( global censorship). I came back for awhile visiting this board that soon will not be on top unless the founders work harder to generate more membership to be on top of group !!


In one way I am happy to see such merging . No news is better than bad news. This screen has been abused by poor nations ruling systems to display their craps and garbage under name of Islam. I do not wonder that none of those founder responded to you and not to your prior denial of Quran. Some of them claim are Quranist but not able to defend Quran . They have no proof that Quran is word of GOD and they are like fire fighters with no water.




Your denial of Quran is not new and has been there for 1400 years.




I could not close my eye and let you go with your confusing claim .


I was thinking like you for 60 years. I could not believe that GOD will send us such messages in Quran and pervious scriptures.


When I was younger I searched for a solid proof to persuade me for existence of Creator. Religious people trying to tell me that their book (books) is the right one. They were trying to read what is recorded in the book prior to proof of book. They were talking of Miracles that Moses performed or Jesus or others.


Sectarian Moslems claim that Mohammed was unlettered and citing such extra ordinary Arabic Rhymed literature by Mohammed as security guard at his time and even now is miracle and sign of GOD. If I was Arab and educated one to read and understand beauty of Quran text then I agreed with them . But I do not know Arabic like other 6 billions minus Arabs.


I could not accept their claim as other numerous religions before them. I could not follow them blindly. I could keep my job, position, wealth as many did and follow them blindly. But doing such thing was cheating myself and selling my belief.


I was destined to be what I was an Atheist to the time that was time my eye be opened and that veil be removed .


I did not go to masque and ask imam or shiekh to submit to GOD ALONE. No body invited me and nobody send me email to visit any file. When the time comes no force can stop it and that was time for me to convert into Submission. ISLAM (no sect).


What was that power ? What caused I revert and submit to GOD ALONE ?


Witnessing Superhuman Mathematical Structure of Quran washed out all my doubt and denial.


I did not have to have degree in mathematics, theology, philosophy, science.. All I needed was to undertand four basic arithmetic functions +-*/


Easy to understand-Impossible to imitate.


I am not sure if you can understand and see it. I am not sure if the time those dust be removed from your eye as happened to me. You do not have to know Arabic to see greatness of GOD. Christian say it is Satan work as the text, Sectarian Moslem say that is fraud and wrong.


http://home.istar.ca/~tajeri/bsm2.html


But is there with all its power is sparkling over head of this planet residence. Recently I dropped an easy and simple portion of such Superhuman mathematical structure in mathematician club without referring to source.


Visit here read “Challenge” and find what was the response !!


http://pub38.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=3200326915


It will be wasting time if we refer to verses in Quran and discuss them prior to proof of Quran and demonstrate that it is same words that GOD revealed to Mohammed.


If you are one of those that your heart is not clear of any prejudices and your belief is linked to what your teacher and parents have taught you then is no sense we continuing this discussion.


If you and others are interested to discuss this topic then I recommend you to visit above board which displays you


I am posting copy of yours and my response in either boards in case this poat be deleted as done to my other one.


Before I finish I may say:


I wonder why you use Koran on your topic and Quran in your post?. My Iranian Arabic tells me that Qur ( Persian use Ghur) means Read and Un means IT. Q is more closer to GHAF or Quf than K.


I am not sure if you real name is Victor ( fatih) but it could not be coincidence that your name is linking to al Fateha (The Key) chapter (sura one ) which you claim is words of Mohammed not GOD.). Not only your Yahoo alias fits your claim {al fatiha} but that chosen number 619 is the place that GOD clearly responses to claims like YOURS!!!


[al-An`am 6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."




Quran has 114 chapters =6*19




And when I look at same combination:




[as-Saff 61:7] Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies about GOD, and he is being invited to Submission? GOD does not guide the evil people.


[as-Saff 61:8] They wish to put out GOD's light with their mouths. But GOD insists upon perfecting His light, in spite of the disbelievers.




[as-Saff 61:9] He has sent His messenger with the guidance and the true religion, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.




[as-Saff 61:10] O you who believe, let Me inform you of a trade that will save you from painful retribution.


[as-Saff 61:11] Believe in GOD and His messenger and strive in the cause of GOD with your money and your lives. This is the best deal for you, if you only knew.
















I close down with your claim:


<< Dear Readers, we will see how some of the verses in the Quran itself show clearly that these words were obviously spoken by Muhammad and Not God. The Opening Sura Fatihah: (Quran 1:1-7) In the name of the Merciful and Compassionate God. Praise belongs to God, The Lord of the worlds, the merciful, the compassionate, the ruler of the day of the day of judgment! Thee we serve and Thee we ask for aid. Guide us in the right path, the path of those Thou art gracious to; not to those Thou art wroth with, nor of those who err. Someone need not be a rocket-scientist to comprehend that these words are clearly addressed to God, in the form of a prayer. They are Muhammad's words of praise to God ("Guide us in the right path,..." ~ 001.006), asking for God's help and guidance>>




Will you then Submit?


http://home.istar.ca/~tajeri/bsm2.html


Peace.

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Replying to:

kuran is not a word of god victor619


12/1/01 7:08 pm


Quran- Word of God or Muhammad ? Dear Readers, have you noticed there are many verses in Quran which uses Muhammad's word directly ? If we read those verses, we clearly understand that those were Muhammad's own word, not Allah's. Well, according to the Muslims the Quran contains the words of God. Quran is to be read as if God Himself had spoken these words stated in it. It is important to emphasize this point because if Quran is the word of God then it should not contain any errors and it should hold true for all times. However, such is not the case. Dear Readers, we will see how some of the verses in the Quran itself show clearly that these words were obviously spoken by Muhammad and Not God. The Opening Sura Fatihah Quran 1:1-7) In the name of the Merciful and Compassionate God. Praise belongs to God, The Lord of the worlds, the merciful, the compassionate, the ruler of the day of the day of judgment! Thee we serve and Thee we ask for aid. Guide us in the right path, the path of those Thou art gracious to; not to those Thou art wroth with, nor of those who err. Someone need not be a rocket-scientist to comprehend that these words are clearly addressed to God, in the form of a prayer. They are Muhammad's words of praise to God ("Guide us in the right path,..." ~ 001.006), asking for God's help and guidance. Some Muslim compilers conveniently add the imperative "say" in the English translation of the Quran at the beginning of the sura to remove this difficulty. This imperative form of the word "say" occurs at least 350 times in the Quran, and its obvious that this word has, in fact, been inserted by later compilers of the Quran to remove countless similarly embarrassing difficulties. Thus, we have direct evidence that the Quran starts out with the words of Muhammad. (Quran 113:1) I take refuge with the Lord of the Dawn. One can clearly see, its Muhammad and NOT GOD HIMSELF who is seeking refuge in God.




View Replies to this Message




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http://answering-islam.org/Hahn/conspiracy.htm




This page goes into the issue of the compilation of the Quran as put forth by the Ahadith. It says that Uthman was responsible for the sequence of the Quranic verses( I will contact him and ask him to provide hadeethic reference).




"Uthman set the sequence of the Quranic verses. One tradition notes the confusion about the relationship of Surah Bara’at (= Surah Tawbah) with Surah Anfal."




Godbless,


Anwar

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Replying to:

Peace.


Getting older and slower


I may answer 2 posts in one. .


""The chronological order of the Quran is based on both hadeeth and Islamic traditions, according to my knowledge. Just like Muslim scholars sat down and decided which passages were abrogated they also decided to attach chronological order to the Quranic verses and say whether they were madinan or meccan.""




I will appreciate if you post the those sources with more detail here. I have asked same question more than year in forums that many have Hadith knowledge. I have not had any response. Now if you know then will be a great help.


I am not sure if you read whole work in submission .org ( not .com that you mentioned in your life story!)


Setting up that table is such method can not be any human work when mathematician are stumped to imitate it.




"" There is no easy way. I believe that the Quran is from God today because after reading it so far I have no reason not to. ""




I have heard that from all other religion believer which claim their scripyure is authored by GOD which fight and kill each other for proving their claim


http://perso.wanadoo.fr/paul.g.aclinou/freelinkpage1gods.htm




Debating over content of any scripture prior to its proof authored by GOD ALONE is wasting time. There are many monotheists that are not ready to see and understand mathematical structure of Quran. Same as you they say that they believe Quran is Authored by GOD. I personally have no difficulty to see these people a which their connection with their past is avoiding them to see Miracle. But if they want to invite others to read Quran as you do then you will have a difficult time to persuade them to leave their parents belief. So what makes you sure that Quran is authored by GOD and not other scriptures.




<< Rahsad has mistranslated that passage that you use. it is 25:32 and it says in Arabic 'rattalnaahu tarteelan' rattala means 'to arrange/order' and to put 'tarteelan' behind it is like saying 'excellently'. So that it means 'We arranged it excellently' not 'we have arranged it in specific sequence'. This is a horrible mistranslation>>


First Rashad did not translate that verse to match his table. I have added it as explains the secret of specific sequence.


http://mama.stg.brown.edu/templates/pqcgi?sourceform=pqform.shtml&searchtype=fetch&boolop=and&maxhits=50&searchstring=25%3a32&version=all


Sectarian translators have used almost same words.




About the moon you may go to forum link and find what idea I have for using moon as timing device.


Any large project by human could have some flaw. God; s project has no flaw and if we see some errors in mathematical structure d is due to human mistakes. We are at very early stage of discoveries of GOD’s Sign Code 19.


This phenomenon have been proofed scientifically by Dr.Plichta with 30 years study to discover new method of Math. The famous clergy figure Ahmed Deedat has supported this facts too.


But Miracle is self defense and shows greatness of creator.


You may ask math professors to find the solution for putting those Surat number in Specific , Special, Excellent, or correct orders.




I have asked for participating here to sign the petition . I am not sure if you have done it. Therecords on this screen shows that you are using your real name.




Peace.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Rahsad has mistranslated that passage that you use. it is 25:32 and it says in Arabic 'rattalnaahu tarteelan' rattala means 'to arrange/order' and to put 'tarteelan' behind it is like saying 'excellently'. So that it means 'We arranged it excellently' not 'we have arranged it in specific sequence'. This is a horrible mistranslation. Moreover, your articles that have to do with the moon i find misinformed. Not on nutation but on the moon as a timing device. The lunar calendar is a timing device. Through it we know of Hajj, Ramadan and it also has much implications for agriculture and fishing cycles. Moreover the sun lets us know of the solar year. We as humans have tried to come up with something that defies earth time because the lunar year and the solar year fluctuate. But this is Earth time, the Earth moves and breathes by the calendar of the moon and the sun. I'm sure we'll find out that in all different systems in this universe there are different times. Time is relative. We have abondoned these times in our effort to separate ourselves from nature, an effort which will lead to our destruction. The ancients focused on the lunar cycle, and the solar cycle(which is mapped by the Zodiac) very much. We think it is because they had nothing better to do and were just intrigued by the stars. But I wonder how far observing natural laws and using them to your own benefit within the system can really get us. Maybe they were more careful then we are in the way we use what nature has to offer us and more observant and respectful of the perfection of nature to their great advantage. OR maybe they weren't. All I know is that our negligence and avoidance of the way the earth works has led uss down a bad road health wise, as we die of diseases that we blame God for(our genes believing them innate and unchangeable). And we continue to look for the short cuts that will bring us more money or more fame(but mainly more money) when God has laid the best path already for those who are prudent and intelligent enough to look, see and take advantage of. We humans are a psychotic race. My main point is that it looks as if you've overlooked an important aspect of the Quran and the importance of the lunar and solar cylces in going straight to nutation(though this may be of much benefit also) and looking for something connected to 19. Have you looked at the article (The Movement) that I posted at the top of the page? And really examine brother Hardy's article. Also remember how much of what you are seeing is really a miracle/marvel and what is a miracle or marvel for? But most importantly, look for consistency and go back to the passage and look at the Arabic, not Rashad's translation which I've shown you is a bit twisted. Did God have said what you and other proponents of the miracle are saying? That is most important. As well as if the study of 19 is more important than the actual study of the Quran.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

The chronological order of the Quran is based on both hadeeth and Islamic traditions, according to my knowledge. Just like Muslim scholars sat down and decided which passages were abrogated they also decided to attach chronological order to the Quranic verses and say whether they were madinan or meccan. I believe this orginated in the hadeethic stories of the Quran's compilation attributed to the "companions" of the prophet. These stories are not to be trusted, let alone over the Quran. The Quran is more historical then these sources and we need to go to IT for the answers. Even the verse numbers and the names of the suras are Islamic tradition and not soundly based(the Quran talks about those who divide it up into bits). I presume that the names came after Bukhari's time because when he cites them in his interpretation of them he does not mention them by their names but by their first passages. The order of the Quran now is the order that it was recieved in, not the contrived order made up by scholars who contradict the Quran constantly. Many of the stories about Muhammad(Godbless) contradict the Quran. The Quran has his parents alive during the revelation, the Quran says that the way Gabriel recited it was the way it was to be followed. So why would he, Muhammad(Godbless,)command otherwise? Moreover the only thing that separates suras are the 'basmala's. Suratun means enclosement and these are the only things that enclose. SO why are there 114 suras? There should only be 113. Do not trust these shady traditions. They either are based in Hadeeth or based in scholarly imagination. The only two things the Hadeeth are good for are affirming the Qur'an's existence during and before its time and telling us what the people of that time most likely believed. We really don't know if the Quran took 20 yrs to deliver, this is hearsay. The Quran actually does say that it was delivered at once to Muhammad, but delivered gradually to the people. Muhammad's parents, according to the Quran, weren't even in their old age, and if old age begins at 50 then Muhammad during revelation was at the most 39, assuming his mother had him at 12 years old.(doubtful but possible) But then these people counted years by the moon instead of by the solar year(the zodiacal cycle), so 50 to us was probably about 60 or so to them, I believe. But then again, if they followed the Jewish practice of counting years, which they did, then they WOULD think of it as about 50.(the Quran changed this practice). This is not necessarily important, but what is important is that we put things into their rightful context. This mathematical miracle needs false islamic traditon and the passage mentioned to back it up. The tradition is false and the passage doesn't back it up, not to mention the inconsistencies in procedure and statistical knowledge that makes what many have claimed to be a miracle, not one. I studied the code and the inconsistencies were enough for me in combination with what the passage actually said. THis thing is causing no-one trouble but the people who believe in it. Let go and let God. In this world there is always the possibility that we may be wrong and only honest study and criticism will lead us on the right path. There is no easy way. I believe that the Quran is from God today because after reading it so far I have no reason not to. But I had to read it and criticize it and make room for the possibility that it would contradict itself and that I would have to reject it. I may see something different tomorrow, and that is the unsurity of the matter, but I can only go on what I know. With or without the Quran I still believe in God, logically. It confirmed that, so it earned one score and as long as it continues to earn scores and stay consistent and logical then I will accept it for what it says it is: God's message. As for those subject, books or things I don't have knolwedge about, I just say "I don't know." Then I try to know.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Peace Anwar:


Welcome.


Can you help to find solution?


http://home.istar.ca/~tajeri/suratorder.html


Peace.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bahman, I mean no disprepect when I tell you this but the code is a farse. A knowledge of Arabic is necessary when approaching the Qur'an. I will not go into the inconsistencies I find with the code but I will go into the very verse that the code is based off of. I ask you to go here: http://www.inet.ba/~hardy/whatmade.htm


and re-examine the code. The most important thing is not the


code but what the book actually says and what the Qur'an says about 19 surely does not promote any code. It does not call the number 19 a mircacle but a fitnatun, a trial and tribulation. There is too much inconsistency I observed that and so did the writer of the article I recommended.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

*19*


17:36


Peace upon you :




I wrote my ps awhile ago and when found changes in yahoo club and merging into new directory ( global censorship). I came back for awhile visiting this board that soon will not be on top unless the founders work harder to generate more membership to be on top of group !!


In one way I am happy to see such merging . No news is better than bad news. This screen has been abused by poor nations ruling systems to display their craps and garbage under name of Islam. I do not wonder that none of those founder responded to you and not to your prior denial of Quran. Some of them claim are Quranist but not able to defend Quran . They have no proof that Quran is word of GOD and they are like fire fighters with no water.




Your denial of Quran is not new and has been there for 1400 years.




I could not close my eye and let you go with your confusing claim .


I was thinking like you for 60 years. I could not believe that GOD will send us such messages in Quran and pervious scriptures.


When I was younger I searched for a solid proof to persuade me for existence of Creator. Religious people trying to tell me that their book (books) is the right one. They were trying to read what is recorded in the book prior to proof of book. They were talking of Miracles that Moses performed or Jesus or others.


Sectarian Moslems claim that Mohammed was unlettered and citing such extra ordinary Arabic Rhymed literature by Mohammed as security guard at his time and even now is miracle and sign of GOD. If I was Arab and educated one to read and understand beauty of Quran text then I agreed with them . But I do not know Arabic like other 6 billions minus Arabs.


I could not accept their claim as other numerous religions before them. I could not follow them blindly. I could keep my job, position, wealth as many did and follow them blindly. But doing such thing was cheating myself and selling my belief.


I was destined to be what I was an Atheist to the time that was time my eye be opened and that veil be removed .


I did not go to masque and ask imam or shiekh to submit to GOD ALONE. No body invited me and nobody send me email to visit any file. When the time comes no force can stop it and that was time for me to convert into Submission. ISLAM (no sect).


What was that power ? What caused I revert and submit to GOD ALONE ?


Witnessing Superhuman Mathematical Structure of Quran washed out all my doubt and denial.


I did not have to have degree in mathematics, theology, philosophy, science.. All I needed was to undertand four basic arithmetic functions +-*/


Easy to understand-Impossible to imitate.


I am not sure if you can understand and see it. I am not sure if the time those dust be removed from your eye as happened to me. You do not have to know Arabic to see greatness of GOD. Christian say it is Satan work as the text, Sectarian Moslem say that is fraud and wrong.


http://home.istar.ca/~tajeri/bsm2.html


But is there with all its power is sparkling over head of this planet residence. Recently I dropped an easy and simple portion of such Superhuman mathematical structure in mathematician club without referring to source.


Visit here read “Challenge” and find what was the response !!


http://pub38.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=3200326915


It will be wasting time if we refer to verses in Quran and discuss them prior to proof of Quran and demonstrate that it is same words that GOD revealed to Mohammed.


If you are one of those that your heart is not clear of any prejudices and your belief is linked to what your teacher and parents have taught you then is no sense we continuing this discussion.


If you and others are interested to discuss this topic then I recommend you to visit above board which displays you


I am posting copy of yours and my response in either boards in case this poat be deleted as done to my other one.


Before I finish I may say:


I wonder why you use Koran on your topic and Quran in your post?. My Iranian Arabic tells me that Qur ( Persian use Ghur) means Read and Un means IT. Q is more closer to GHAF or Quf than K.


I am not sure if you real name is Victor ( fatih) but it could not be coincidence that your name is linking to al Fateha (The Key) chapter (sura one ) which you claim is words of Mohammed not GOD.). Not only your Yahoo alias fits your claim {al fatiha} but that chosen number 619 is the place that GOD clearly responses to claims like YOURS!!!


[al-An`am 6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."




Quran has 114 chapters =6*19




And when I look at same combination:




[as-Saff 61:7] Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies about GOD, and he is being invited to Submission? GOD does not guide the evil people.


[as-Saff 61:8] They wish to put out GOD's light with their mouths. But GOD insists upon perfecting His light, in spite of the disbelievers.




[as-Saff 61:9] He has sent His messenger with the guidance and the true religion, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.




[as-Saff 61:10] O you who believe, let Me inform you of a trade that will save you from painful retribution.


[as-Saff 61:11] Believe in GOD and His messenger and strive in the cause of GOD with your money and your lives. This is the best deal for you, if you only knew.
















I close down with your claim:


<< Dear Readers, we will see how some of the verses in the Quran itself show clearly that these words were obviously spoken by Muhammad and Not God. The Opening Sura Fatihah: (Quran 1:1-7) In the name of the Merciful and Compassionate God. Praise belongs to God, The Lord of the worlds, the merciful, the compassionate, the ruler of the day of the day of judgment! Thee we serve and Thee we ask for aid. Guide us in the right path, the path of those Thou art gracious to; not to those Thou art wroth with, nor of those who err. Someone need not be a rocket-scientist to comprehend that these words are clearly addressed to God, in the form of a prayer. They are Muhammad's words of praise to God ("Guide us in the right path,..." ~ 001.006), asking for God's help and guidance>>




Will you then Submit?


http://home.istar.ca/~tajeri/bsm2.html


Peace.

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Replying to:

kuran is not a word of god victor619


12/1/01 7:08 pm


Quran- Word of God or Muhammad ? Dear Readers, have you noticed there are many verses in Quran which uses Muhammad's word directly ? If we read those verses, we clearly understand that those were Muhammad's own word, not Allah's. Well, according to the Muslims the Quran contains the words of God. Quran is to be read as if God Himself had spoken these words stated in it. It is important to emphasize this point because if Quran is the word of God then it should not contain any errors and it should hold true for all times. However, such is not the case. Dear Readers, we will see how some of the verses in the Quran itself show clearly that these words were obviously spoken by Muhammad and Not God. The Opening Sura Fatihah Quran 1:1-7) In the name of the Merciful and Compassionate God. Praise belongs to God, The Lord of the worlds, the merciful, the compassionate, the ruler of the day of the day of judgment! Thee we serve and Thee we ask for aid. Guide us in the right path, the path of those Thou art gracious to; not to those Thou art wroth with, nor of those who err. Someone need not be a rocket-scientist to comprehend that these words are clearly addressed to God, in the form of a prayer. They are Muhammad's words of praise to God ("Guide us in the right path,..." ~ 001.006), asking for God's help and guidance. Some Muslim compilers conveniently add the imperative "say" in the English translation of the Quran at the beginning of the sura to remove this difficulty. This imperative form of the word "say" occurs at least 350 times in the Quran, and its obvious that this word has, in fact, been inserted by later compilers of the Quran to remove countless similarly embarrassing difficulties. Thus, we have direct evidence that the Quran starts out with the words of Muhammad. (Quran 113:1) I take refuge with the Lord of the Dawn. One can clearly see, its Muhammad and NOT GOD HIMSELF who is seeking refuge in God.




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